If it takes up land and someone grows something edible, as far as USDA is concerned, it’s a farm

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You might not think of farm and urban in the same sentence. But the Agriculture Department does. In fact there’s a new federal advisory committee designed to help the department better understand the needs of urban farmers. Joining the Federal Drive with Tom Temin with more, chief of USDA’s Natural Resources Conservation Service, Terry Cosby.

Interview transcript:

Tom Temin: Mr. Cosby, good to have you on.

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Terry Cosby: Tom, thank you for having me this morning. It is great to be here.

Tom Temin: First of all, let’s define urban agriculture. Because I imagine it’s more than Victory Gardens and rooftop gardens and that kind of thing.

Terry Cosby: Yes it is, you know, we have a lot of folks out there that are in areas where we have places where grocery stores have closed up, so anywhere can be an urban garden. But the thing I want to stress here is that, you know, it doesn’t have to be a million people location, it could be a small metropolitan area where there’s only five houses. And so urban garden takes a lot of forms and shapes.

Tom Temin: And I think even in Washington, D.C., there is an operating farm that is way more than a garden that is a production-oriented, trying to sell products at market type of operation. And I guess this is not uncommon?

Terry Cosby: It is not uncommon in here at USDA, we also have a people’s garden Initiative where we’re growing fruits and vegetables, we don’t sell them, but we have that set up out there so folks can walk through. But you know, this is something that a lot of folks have been doing for a lot of years. A lot of people want to buy local, grow local, it’s working all across the country, and urban agriculture looks different in every community.

Tom Temin: And does the USDA have any sort of handle on how big this movement is in terms of acreage or economic output in a given year?

Terry Cosby: Well, that’s something that we’re going to be working on. Because right now, we don’t have a lot of data on this. We know that across this country, in a lot of the urban metropolitan areas, there’s a lot of folks that you know, really have farming in their DNA. And they really want to do this. And so we got a lot of folks doing this just in their backyards from having maybe a planter with a few tomatoes or a few vegetables and it to people that have cultivated some big acreages in some of the green space out there. So it is something that’s really growing. It’s something that we’re really excited about, because whether it is urban or rural, it’s part of agriculture.

Tom Temin: And when you think of USDA as helping farmers, you tend to think in terms of the big farms and the need for crop supports, and all of these other massive programs that get reauthorized from time to time, what programs do you have for urban agriculturalists? And farmers? And is that something you’re looking to maybe alter and tailor more closely to what they need?

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Terry Cosby: Well, you know, we’ve always had something there for urban farmers, urban production. And so a lot of the things that we offer in the rural community, we also offer in urban communities, especially when we talk about farm bill and farm bill programs, all it is is just on a smaller scale. So urban producers go through a lot of the same procedures and the different policies we have for our rural producers, as you talked about. So it’s pretty much the same concept, but it’s just on a smaller scale.

Tom Temin: Well, how do you distinguish between someone who is just say, a hobbyist, though, and someone who’s actually a farmer, in the sense of being qualified for USDA programs?

Terry Cosby: Well, we don’t distinguish those, what we do is, you know, there’s a process that any landowner that wants to participate in a Farm Bill program have to go through, they start over at the Farm Service Agency, and they go in, they get a tracking number and a farm number. And then there’s an eligibility thing that they go through. And then if they’re found to be eligible, then they can apply for any of our Farm Bill programs. And another thing we have is that some folks may not want to participate in the programs, but we have what we call a technical assistance where we can go out and assist them and talk about, you know, soils and soil health and kind of how to do a lot of these things. And so there’s a lot of opportunities here for any producer that wants to work with USDA.

Tom Temin: We are speaking with Terry Cosby, chief of the Natural Resources Conservation Service at the Agriculture Department. And I asked about, you know, the total size of it. Is it the sense of USDA? Is it your sense that urban agriculture is growing, no pun intended, but it’s getting to be a larger field?

Terry Cosby: I think you’re going to see a larger footprint because like I say, people are being more health-conscious and aware of the needs. And you know, when you can grow your own fruits and vegetables and harvest them and take them into your own kitchen and use them, you actually know where that is coming from and the love and care that you’ve given it. And so it’s something to watch, you know, as a boy growing up in Mississippi, I’m a farm boy. And so we had gardens, and that’s how we lived. And so we have a lot of folks that’s gone back to a lot of things they did in their youth or childhood and know that their parents and grandparents did and so like I say a lot of folks have farming in their DNA.

Tom Temin: What are some of the particular issues that an urban farm might encounter that say a large standard, un-urban farm might not? For example, suppose someone, I’m just making this up, but suppose they establish an urban farm on a couple of acres that used to have a rubber factory, or you know, or an electronics factory, or they made capacitors and there’s could be all kinds of chemicals in the soil?

Terry Cosby: Well, you know, we have a lot of different types of situations. But you know, like I said, we talked about the technical assistance that we offer. And also, there’s a lot of universities and a lot of folks out there that happen to look at this. But you got to have a good healthy soul to raise these products. So you’re making sure that you’re raising a healthy product there. And we have instances where we have abandoned homes where, you know, there’s soul contamination, and some of those type things. So we encourage folks to do a soil test to make sure they know what’s there. And there’s some contaminants or problems there, then there are folks out there that can help them decide whether they need to remove those soles if they need to bring in new soil. And so there’s a whole series of things that we’re asking people. Some of the other things you got to contain within urban areas, sometimes there’s a permit involved, especially if you’re in an industrialized area where they have city codes and zoning. So there’s some special things that folks in urban areas might have to go through to get that permit to build, especially if you want to put up a structure like a hoop house or some of those type things. So like I say, every city is different, every community is different. And so we have folks locally and work with individuals to figure out okay, how do I do this?

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Tom Temin: And by the same token, say someone could find something in the soil test. But one of the USDA experts could say, well, yes, that’s in the soil, but it does not make its way into the cantaloupes, so you don’t have anything to worry about.

Terry Cosby: Well, like I say, we have a lot of folks out there like universities, and a lot of folks out there that has an expertise. You know, we talk from a soil health standpoint about how to take care of the soil. But there are a lot of folks out there that work alongside of us to talk about, you know, if you find these type things, maybe this is a way that you need to remediate that soil to make sure you’re not growing something that’s going to lead to unhealthy food.

Tom Temin: Sure. And we’ve been talking mostly about the planting type of agriculture, you know, plants, what about animals, animal husbandry, and chickens and pigs and so forth in urban settings? Does that come up from time to time?

Terry Cosby: Well, you know, we’ve been looking at mostly gardening, but there’s a lot of cities that allow that. A lot of these places, there’s a limit on how many you can have whether it’s one cow or 10 chickens or a couple pigs. But there are some places out there that allow folks to actually do this, you know, bee farming, that’s part of agriculture. So there’s a lot of ways you can be involved from the animal side to the plant side.

Tom Temin: And is there something that different political subdivisions, cities, towns, counties, can do to encourage this? For example, where I live, I walked by this great big field, and they divided every spring into like, 100 different little squares that people cultivate. And then it’s all gone, you know, come fall, and they till it over. And then people come back again in the spring, but it’s under the auspices of the city subdivision.

Terry Cosby: Yes. And I know, I’ve done this before, you know, I moved off the farm and moved into some of the cities, one of the things that you find is, is that having access to land in some places is a problem when you want to do this. So if you can go into a lot of these communities and work with some of the local churches, or some of the local food banks, where they have, you know, some green space where they’re willing to let you have a small plot to go out and raise these vegetables. We have folks out there for USDA that go out in these small communities, and they go out and plant a garden, and they have classes there to talk about what’s being grown, and how do you make sure your soil is productive, and all of the things that you need to make sure you’re successful. So there’s all types of farming, whether small or big. But you know, like I say, it’s different in almost every community.

Tom Temin: Well, next time we’ll talk about canning for the winter. Terry Cosby is chief of the Natural Resources Conservation Service at the Agriculture Department. Thanks so much for joining me.

Terry Cosby: Tom, thank you, and call us anytime we love talking about urban agriculture.

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