China has a brilliant strategy for accelerating basic research in a range of strategic topics. It steals research paid for by the United States. That’s why my next guest urges the government to get serious about securing federally funded research.  The Federal Drive with Tom Temin  welcomed senior fellow at the Foundation for American Innovation, Dan Lips.

Interview transcript:

Tom Temin And so you have written extensively about this problem of research. I guess this is funded by the government and conducted by universities and other organizations. And the data produced is just there for the taking.

Dan Lips Well, it’s a big problem on two levels. First, the fact that American funded research is being used to support the Chinese military should be unacceptable to everyone. And on the second level, this is a problem that has been well known and established by Congress, a congressional investigation five years ago. Back in September, there was a new report, investigative report issued by the House China Select Committee and House Education and Workforce Committee. And what it found was that the Department of Defense and the Intelligence Community had funded more than 8,000 research papers that were jointly produced with researchers with links to the Chinese Communist Party or the People’s Republic of China.

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Tom Temin Right. And so that means not necessarily theft or breaking in and cybersecurity, but it’s actual access by virtue of being a contributor.

Dan Lips Absolutely. It’s a partnership essentially with researchers with links to the Chinese government. And much of this is around dual use technology and open research, but a lot of it is being very valuable and supported. It’s valuable in advancing Chinese military aims.

Tom Temin We see this in a lot of domains, even in public education, nations funding initiatives in the United States. I think Qatar is a country, for example, that does this and not many people are aware of it. But in security related research, China actually pays universities. Explain the plumbing here.

Dan Lips The other side of this is that there’s a lot of foreign funds from countries around the world, and goes to American colleges and universities. And back in the 1980s, there was a law passed that required colleges and universities to disclose those contributions. These were basically gifts, contracts, payments to the U.S. Department of Education. But for decades, this law essentially went unenforced. And there was very little transparency about where this money was going, and what access this was buying. But back in 2019, there was two investigations put out by the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Intelligence, one showing how China was accessing and stealing from the U.S. research enterprise. But also a second investigation showed that American colleges and universities weren’t complying with this law to show all the money that was coming in from foreign governments. And also the U.S. Department of Education wasn’t enforcing that law. So there’s a lack of transparency about these relationships which invite research theft.

Tom Temin So there’s really two mechanisms then, they could steal research by hacking and so forth and getting that out of systems. And then the other mechanism, it sounds like, is if they could simply use their own money to pay University of X,Y,Z to do research in this strategic area, only the deliverable would go to whoever’s paying, in this case, China, rather than the Intelligence Community.

Dan Lips Yeah, it’s basically a plan. It’s a part of their thousand talents plan to access information from the West to support their their aims. And there’s really two problems that could be solved here. First, the U.S. government could do a better job of deciding how to fund research. Back, earlier this year, the Government Accountability Office produced a report. Federal agencies weren’t vetting the people who are being funded by to do research on behalf of American taxpayers. Let’s have those agencies do a better job of screening who’s getting funds and who we’re sharing information with. On the second part of it, we really need to do a better job of finding out where all the foreign money is going on American colleges.

Tom Temin We’re speaking with Dan Lips. He’s senior fellow at the Foundation for American Innovation. He’s also the policy director there. And we should say a former FBI intelligence analyst. So is it possible then, under the way things are lax now that China or any foreign country could pay for strategic level research, if an American institution was willing to take the money and do the research and deliver it to the Chinese?

Dan Lips It’s a good question. I think that it’s perhaps a little more vague than that. But in the House report that was put out back in September, two of the examples that they provided about U.S. colleges having research, essentially research programs that support the Chinese government involved research centers that were in China. So when when a university considers establishing a research institution, it was in this case there was Cal Berkeley and Georgia Tech, and that was where we saw critical research being exploited, according to the House report. So I think it’s more a deeper question of what does it mean to have foreign governments paying for programs across American college campuses. Some of it’s and to have centers in their countries, some of that is benign and helping with foreign exchange. But some of it’s pernicious. And we should be at least having transparency about all those payments and where the research funds are going to understand what’s happening.

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Tom Temin Right, because looking at hypersonics, I think as mentioned in your essay or drone swarms, which is a big priority right now for the Defense Department. We want the research being done in the United States to benefit only the United States, I would think.

Dan Lips Absolutely. So it’s a real question of why don’t the national security agencies do a better job of screening where their research dollars were going?

Tom Temin And on the issue of the security of research just paid for by the IC, say, or the Defense Department with no other payments involved. That’s an issue, too, is just the simple carelessness with which that’s secured.

Dan Lips Well, I think that it’s really on what the research programs are funding. This House report showed that there are more than 8,000 research papers that were coauthored by researchers with ties to the United States, but also by people with ties with the PRC. So I think there’s needs to be a better job of understanding where research funds are going, of vetting applications, of sharing information about between agencies to that, who are we funding to do research.

Tom Temin And we also have a lot of Chinese people in academic institutions for that matter, there in some federal agencies that are doing very strategic work in cybersecurity and some of these other topics. And is there evidence that those people are vetted properly as to where their loyalties lie?

Dan Lips I certainly don’t know the answer to that question. And I think it’s worth stating that it’s valuable for American colleges and universities to be welcoming students from around the world for a long time. That’s been one of the best ways that the United States has promoted American values and spread our views of to people around the world. Academic exchange is critical. But when it comes to basically having shaping the strategies and programs and activities of American universities and of research programs, it’s important for public and for everybody to know where who’s controlling those strings, where’s the money coming from to do that, particularly when there’s national security research at stake?

Tom Temin And are there any legislative gambits going on right now that would start to get this under control?

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Dan Lips Yeah, the biggest one that I’m aware of is the House has a bill that was passed back in the winter of called the Deter Act or the Deterrent Act. It basically would improve transparency around the payments that are made to American colleges. Right now, there’s a threshold of $250,000 is the level that colleges and universities must report. It would lower that down to $50,000, and it would also provide some more reporting requirements around how colleges disclose that information to the Department of Education. There’s also a great effort was required by the House appropriations bill that would essentially require the Department of Education to do a better job of publishing this information. Right now, it’s really hard for anyone from the public to see where those funds are going.

Tom Temin And is this something that has bipartisan support in general?

Dan Lips I think the House Deter Deterrence Act had some bipartisan support. Unfortunately, the bill has not moved yet in the Senate. But I should point out that the report I mentioned, the investigation that was conducted in the Senate back in 2019 was bipartisan. And we’ve seen some bipartisan support in previous legislative measures to tighten security around American research.

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