Innovation can be hard to define, especially in something as stodgy as the federal government. But you know it when you see it. A study sponsored by the IBM Center for the Business of Government found lots of obstacles to innovation in federal agencies, but also lots of successes. Greg Dawson is senior faculty associate in the school for public affairs at Arizona State University and Jim Denford heads the management and economics department at the Royal Military College of Canada. They did the research and authored the report. Federal Drive with Tom Temin asked them to define innovation. Dawson speaks first.