Almost no one trusts the federal government. Yet nearly all Americans want an effective government and a politically independent civil service. That’s the gist of a national opinion poll conducted recently by the Partnership for Public Service. For details from the Partnership, its CEO Max Stier spoke to the Federal Drive with Tom Temin.

Interview transcript: 

Tom Temin  Max, good to have you back.

Max Stier  It’s a pleasure to be here. Thanks for this conversation.

Tom Temin  Tell us what prompted the idea for the survey. What was your impetus here?

Max Stier  So, we have, for the last several years, been thinking very much about the relationship between our society and our government as an essential element of our democracy. We’ve largely focused on issues around trying to help our government be more trustworthy, but what we recognized is that in addition to being trustworthy, we needed a government that was trusted, and we began a research project to understand where distrust was coming from and what might move the needle. And what we found was just what you stated. The public, by and large, is not very familiar with its own government. They do want an effective government, and they want civil servants that are chosen on the basis of merit. They don’t believe that’s what they’re getting, and some of that is significantly caused by the little information they have about specific federal employees and what they do. But if we’re going to change it, we need to do two things. We need to make sure we are rebuilding trust by telling the stories of what government is doing in a more compelling way. And secondly, we actually need to modernize our government so that it can do even better.

Tom Temin  Sure, and just a brief word on the methodology so we can frame it here.

Max Stier  Yeah. I mean, it’s a nationally representative sample. We’ve been conducting now a series of surveys. We have done specific looks in at young people, because we see that as plainly the future, both for employees in the federal government, as well as the future of public attitudes towards government. So, this is an ongoing research effort on our part, and more than a research effort, it’s an ongoing action program. We’re trying to do the research to understand what’s happening, and our goal, again, is to have a better government and a healthier democracy.

Tom Temin  And give us some of the top line numbers with respect to levels of trust and also levels of belief in that independent, politically neutral professional civil service.

Max Stier  Well, the numbers are ugly, so we are seeing very few Americans who ultimately do trust the government. I will say that one of the challenges that we see in our research is that when you talk about the federal government, many Americans are actually thinking about bickering politicians in Washington, as opposed to the career civil servants that are the focus primarily of the work we’re doing. But they’re cratering. And, you know, you look at the larger world, and institutions, broadly speaking, are losing trust, but the federal government, certainly, you know, is close to, if not, at the very bottom of those institutions. So, that’s a real problem. And then to your point about the attitudes towards what they have right now, that, likewise, is highly problematic, especially if you think about, you know, the question of the federal government writ large. When you unpack that and look at specific aspects of what our government does, the prototypical top line example is the Park Service, you see much more positive view towards the Park Service than you do a lot of other functions in government. But generally speaking, almost every individual function of government is viewed more positively than the than the collective of all those functions, which, again, says something I think important.

Tom Temin  Do you think some of this is driven by news? That is to say, let’s take the case of the Coast Guard, which is a fairly effective organization, and people, you know, have respect for it, when they see those white ships and boats and cutters, and yet the Coast Guard, all you hear about it in a news sense, is the ongoing kind of cleanup of the sexual scandal they’ve had at the Maritime Academy. Or for every IRS employee that really works hard to help that individual taxpayer and resolve their issues, you’ve got a lowest learner that can dominate the headlines for a month or two months? Could that be part of the issue?

Max Stier  There’s no question. The answer is yes. I mean, we have a lot of infrastructure that focuses on problems and very little that focuses on solutions, and the good things that are happening. The media is undoubtedly a consequential part of it. I would also point to the entertainment community actually, as being even more powerful than the media. A lot of perceptions are driven by what you see on table shows or on the big screen, and the very savvy agencies actually have investments made in relationships with Hollywood and the entertainment world to improve their image. So, if you look at the FBI or the Defense Department, they actually understand this, and they invest in a way that a lot of other agencies neither have the resources nor the leadership that is willing to make those investments. So, there’s no question. And it’s a big problem. It wouldn’t be a problem if it were a fully accurate representation of what’s going on. But as you suggest, the good stories do get lost, and as you have covered so generously. It’s one of the reasons why we do the Service to America medals, Sammies, so we can balance out a little bit of the equation.

Tom Temin  We’re speaking with Max Stier, president and CEO of the Partnership for Public Service. And the other factor could be the low level or the low quality of civic education in the country, which, you know, let’s face it, public education doesn’t really concentrate, it seems, that much these days, on even the basics of what are the branches of government and how are they created. How do they interrelate, and why are they formed that way, dating back to the founding? And I think a lot of people just have no idea of any of that.

Max Stier  You’re correct. I think you know the longer term solutions here are really seeing investments in earlier education about how our government works. I mean, again, this is not an effort to hide problems, but it’s an effort to help people better understand not only what we have today, but how we get something better. And we’re very focused on an agenda of reform. The reality is that for civil servants, they’re operating in ancient systems that haven’t been modernized and they should be, and that includes not only technology, but the basic rules themselves that were constructed for a different era. And frankly, our leadership in our government, in Congress and the executive branch and in the private sector, is simply not paying attention to this in a way that hurts, that therefore it hurts everybody. We need we need an engaged public. We need engaged leaders to modernize our government. And I would say, like, the bones are strong, we have an incredible asset in a merit based civil service, something that the American public supports greatly. But we need to do what any organization needs to do, which is to keep up with the times. And unfortunately, our government is falling behind because those investments are not being made.

Tom Temin  And what are some reforms you think could possibly help in the long term with, I’ll mention two agencies. One is Secret Service, which has been in the news. And you know, not every Secret Service agent is a terrible person. Most of them really want to protect their protectees and the currency and the many other missions people don’t realize the Secret Service does. The other one is the Bureau of Prisons. You know, recently, I think in the past spring, they were forced to close down a prison after so many revelations of abuse of female prisoners and so forth. And yet, not every correctional officer is a terrible person. The majority do want to help and rehabilitate. What are some reforms that could, I guess, marshal the best in the public servant?

Max Stier  Well, you chose two good examples, I would say. And, you know, one of the common threads between the two of them is that they are two of the lowest rated federal agencies in our Best Places to Work rankings, meaning that employee morale is in the basement. And, you know, one can predict, again, if employees are dispirited, that you’re not going to get the best outcomes that we want. And that’s clear in the for-profit sector and in the public sector. So, when you talk about reforms, number one would be, you know, holding leaders accountable for the morale of their workforces. We should have leaders who understand that getting the, you know, the work of the day done isn’t your job alone. It’s to get it done, but to create long term capability, and that’s about creating a culture and an environment that allows your employees to thrive. So, that would be number one, hold leaders accountable for the state of their own workforces. Do they have the right talent? Do they have the right morale? Do they have the right investments? And when I say leaders, that includes the, you know, executive branch folks, as well as Congress, which ought to be seeing this as part and parcel of their job of oversight at the health of the organizations they’re responsible for. And on the Congress side, you know, leaders need to be held accountable to get budgets appropriations passed on time. I mean, it’s crazy. No private sector organization could actually deliver effectively if it were run the way Congress runs the budgets of federal agencies. And my view is there’s some interesting legislation that’s been proposed that says that they shouldn’t be paid and they shouldn’t be have tickets paid by the public to go back home unless they’ve actually done their most fundamental job of getting appropriations done on time. So, there are a lot of things that can and should be done. The common denominator for them is really holding leaders responsible for the health of the organizations that they’re in charge of. That’s job number one, and they and they’re not getting that done.

Tom Temin  Well, it’s a great survey, and I hope every public servant and many other people outside of the government read it. Max Stier is president and CEO of the Partnership for Public Service. As always, thanks so much for joining me.

Max Stier  Tom, it’s pleasure and thank you.

Tom Temin  We’ll post this interview along with a link to those survey results at federalnewsnetwork.com/federaldrive. Subscribe to the Federal Drive wherever you get your podcasts.

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