Thanks to last year’s legislation to help the semiconductor industry, the National Science Foundation was given $9.9 billion in its record budget for fiscal 2023. Already, the NSF has widened its collaboration with the Energy Department, established partnerships with four big semiconductor companies, and even launched a new artificial intelligence institute devoted to speech pathology. To get the details, the Federal Drive with Tom Temin spoke with NSF director Sethuraman Panchanathan.

Interview transcript:

Tom Temin
Let’s talk about the budget. I kind of simplified how that 9.9 billion came in. There was some appropriations some extra money from the semiconductor bill. But this is really an expansion, in all ways, percentage wise, dollar wise. Do you feel equipped to be able to use it effectively in the time given?

Sethuraman Panchanathan
Tom, since we spoke last, I emphasize the importance of how talent and ideas at democratized all across our nation. That the innovation potential, it resides in every part of our nation. I’m delighted to report that with this increased investment, and thanks to the Biden-Harris administration, and the bipartisan support from Congress, that we have gotten this infusion of resources at this very, very important time for our nation. Where we are able to therefore, unleash the talent and ideas, where we’re able to build the innovation centers all across our nation. This is the moment, and I’m so grateful and glad that we are able to move this path forward for our nation into the future.

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Tom Temin
But, agencies have gotten these influxes of money for a variety of reasons, COVID, semiconductors, infrastructure. Do you feel that you have the organizational power to be able to manage and expend the money in an effective way? Because that’s a challenge.

Sethuraman Panchanathan
Absolutely, Tom, because NSF has been, as you know, again, to an earlier conversation that we had. I had talked about the fact that, there’s so many ideas, so many good possibilities that are out there, that people tell me that it is not being funded at the fullest level. And here is an opportunity for us to really do the right thing at the right time. And so I feel that this investment is perfectly timed, there’s a lot of great ideas and great talent to be nurtured, I repeat myself here. And in order to do that, these resources is very, very timely to be able to deploy it all across our nation.

Tom Temin
And so then in the, say, research grant agenda, then you can probably pull in a lot of maybe, institutions that have not historically participated, and yet have the brain power that they could bring value to a grant from NSF.

Sethuraman Panchanathan
Perfectly said, Tom. I’ve been traveling around the country, with some of the leaders in our congressional delegations. So what I’ve done, I’ve watched firsthand, since in the last few months, I’ve been to Mississippi State, Clemson, Pittsburg State, Wichita State in New Hampshire, everywhere. And wherever I go, I see the tremendous talent and potential that is there. So clearly, we are in a moment where we can really deploy these resources very effectively, in terms of, getting to the outcomes that we seek. And when we talk about proposals coming from those institutions, that have not had their presence at NSF, I asked the question why? Why is it that talent and ideas are democratized, everywhere across our nation, what then precludes, for example, a minority serving institution, or a research institution, or institutions from place or community colleges and others, which do not have their fair share of being able to have their ideas represented. It turns out Tom, that it is because the fact that the research infrastructure, that is available to help faculty to put their ideas or researchers to put their ideas in a form that transcends the gold standard merit review of NSF, is something that is not present everywhere. So we have launched a new program, called GRANTED. It is an acronym, Growing Research Access Through Nationally Transformative Equity and Diversity. That’s what GRANTED stands for. Simply put, it’s a virtual research office, that will be available for any faculty member, any researcher, any institution, from any of those institutions that we talked about, community colleges, minority serving institutions, institutions like the research to institutions, to be able to also participate and partake in this unbelievable future that we’re all envisioning for our nation.

Tom Temin
And when you mentioned the diversity under this GRANTED, does that also extend to people that may have really, what seemed like off the wall, ideas about a particular problem? Because often, big solutions, transformative ideas come from people that go counter to the accepted wisdom or grain?

Sethuraman Panchanathan
Again, Tom, that’s a good point, NSF can be best described as a high risk, high reward agency. There are many, many case studies to showcase, in this context of showing that, when you invest in those, if you want to call them an out-of-the box ideas, or sometimes even crazy ideas, they then have been the source of unbelievable rewards. And there are many examples, and we’ll go into that in detail here. But that’s what NSF does best. And so, absolutely correct, They are going to be able to unleash those transformative ideas, those fundamental ideas, those out-of-the box ideas, so that we might then, ensure that we are unleashing those possibilities for the future. And keeping us the vanguard of innovation and competitiveness as a nation into the future.

Tom Temin
We’re speaking with Dr. Sethuraman Panchanathan, Director of the National Science Foundation. And under the grant and program, some of these newer institutions that are coming into this research orbit, for whatever topic specifically might be. Does the program also include, let’s say, building their capacity to be able to use government grants and understand that whole process and make sure that what they do meets the requirements to fulfill under grants programs other than just the research itself? So are you building that capacity so that they can, kind of permanently, be part of that ecosystem?

Sethuraman Panchanathan
Absolutely. What we’re doing here is not only helping with finding opportunities, and then translating the ideas to a successful proposal writing, and management, grant management, preaward-post award help, help with securing the appropriate partnerships, help with IP and other kinds of issues that typically, people get help when they established institutions. All of this support will be provided. So that over time, with the grants coming in, that they will be able to build their own capacities to do those things also. And so if you want to put it the best way, it is piling up, in terms of, being able to participate, rather than getting stuck or spiraling down, in terms of, not being able to participate. So that’s what we’re trying to do at NSF. And I’m very confident, that we will be able to change the demographic of participation, and therefore the unbelievable ideas that could be unleashed because of that.

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Tom Temin
And I guess, if you think optimistically, that could transmit from those institutions, out to their communities, maybe, at the pre-college level. So people can envision what’s possible, when their brains are engaged in STEM.

Sethuraman Panchanathan
That’s well said, Tom, there are two things that have happens. When these institutions are successful, guess where most of the diverse population of students go to, they go to first to these institutions. And therefore, now we are guaranteeing the diversity of ideas, diversity of talent, diversity of experiences, all of that is captured, by all the students that go through these institutions, as well as, as you said, empowering the cable systems in those regions. And the other end, empowering the innovation ecosystems also. So the jobs of the future, and entrepreneurial environments of the future, new industries of the future are created right there. So it becomes successful innovation ecosystems all across our nation.

Tom Temin
Now, when you’re dealing with partnerships with companies like, Ericsson, IBM, Intel, and Samsung, switching gears here, those are pretty savvy players with a lot of talent and engineering know how. Tell us about those partnerships. And this is under some of the chips act and the semiconductor stimulus money, that is going through NSF. What’s going on with those partnerships.

Sethuraman Panchanathan
So Tom, on many, many programs, you talked about AI institute’s earlier in your introduction. Take any of the programs Quantum, AI, Advanced Wireless, semiconductors, biotechnology, it’s about partnering with a lot of companies, which are already engaged in this, also partnering with young entrepreneurs who are thinking about the future companies. And so in this situation that you’re talking about, this example of a partnership with essentially, Ericsson, IBM, Intel and Samsung, is around the future of semiconductors, called the fuse program. Essentially, it is going to support fundamental research, enabling the core design of semiconductor materials, devices and systems that will propel the U.S. semiconductor manufacturing and applications beyond the limits of Moore’s law, and discover new application spaces. So that’s what we want to do, to be in the vanguard of how we look at the future for semiconductors, as it plays a role in every aspect of our lives these days.

Tom Temin
Right, because optical etching and the deposition techniques that are common now, and they’re still advancing on those. But at some point, those will cease to yield greater and greater numbers of transistors and logic on a chip. And so there are, fundamentally, different ways of approaching transistors, let’s say, and associated components that gets us out of applied research and into basic.

Sethuraman Panchanathan
It is all the way, the spectrum of all of that applied, of course, fundamental basic research, applied research, translational research, and then in partnership with companies, how do we then translate those technologies into the marketplace? And how do we also build new companies for the future? All of that together, working symbiotically.

Tom Temin
And it’s interesting, that Ericsson is European based and Samsung is Korean based. And so, how does that figure in the U.S. taxpayer money flowing to foreign companies? How’s that all managed?

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Sethuraman Panchanathan
Now, in fact, it’s the other way about, those companies are investing in co-investing with us. So that we might launch on these programs. Those companies believe that the talent and ideas the United States is going to position them to be competitive. These are like-minded partners, in a company is coming from our like-minded partners, who believe in the fundamental aspects tenets of scientific progress to openness, transparency, reciprocity, research, integrity, respect for intellectual property, and a whole host of other values that we share. So then it is possible for us to work together, hyper partner, so that we can deliver for our citizens and solve global grand challenge problems.

Tom Temin
And will some of the results of this type of fundamental research, be available only to those companies? Or is there some way of disseminating it in the economy for the next Silicon Valley?

Sethuraman Panchanathan
So basically, what we do is when these companies participates in this kind of a consortium mode, we give them a nonexclusive, worldwide, paid up, nontransferable, irrevocable royalty free license to all the intellectual property rights. And any inventions that are conceived, are first, reduced to practice in the performance of the program work under the funding agreement. But then if people then want to take it up, and then start to develop exclusive partnerships, then they will work with the appropriate researchers or research groups, and then start to engage in that kind of a forum. So that’s how we approach these things.

Tom Temin
Got it. Is that underway, yet? And is there like a locus of this, physically a building or an office? Because these are big outfits. How does it all work functionally?

Sethuraman Panchanathan
So these are funded projects. At the end of the day, people, when we have these programs wire together, we then send a call for proposals. Then there are universities partnering with other entities coming to us with proposals, and then saying that we are going to be able to deliver on what you’re envisioning here with these companies. And then we find the best quality proposal for gold standard merit review. And then the work then gets conducted there. And NSF is able to catalyze, invest, enable, and partner with these institutions to make sure that we are delivering on the outcomes.

Tom Temin
So you’re mainly a convener, almost, in this particular context.

Sethuraman Panchanathan
Yeah, you’re a convener, but also an investor, investor is a powerful way of shaping the future, and the directions of how you want to steer the amazing ideas into outcomes that we think are important for the nation at this time.

Tom Temin
Sure, money in the game is better than skin in the game.

Sethuraman Panchanathan
If you could say that, yes.

Tom Temin
I wanted to ask you about the relationship with the Energy Department. This is long standing. But there’s been a fairly, stepped function widening of that, between the NSF and the Energy Department, expanded collaboration. What are some of the purposes behind that? And what form will that take?

Sethuraman Panchanathan
So, Department of Energy and NSF have been great partners. We have partnered on several things, including large facilities, where we co-invest in those. So basically, what we have tried to do here, is to see if we can further expand the intensity, the breadth and speed of collaboration between NSF and the Department of Energy’s Office of Science. As I said, we have many outstanding long-term collaborations. And this memorializes our commitment to extend the partnership to all areas of research, funded by NSF and DOE’s Office of Science. So the overarching goal of this MOU, is to add value in what we do for the nation, by leveraging each other’s strengths to advance the frontiers of science, engineering and education. As you can imagine, there’s tons of opportunity here, Tom, whether it is clean energy, it is climate, whether it is a whole host of other fundamental scientific discoveries and innovations. This opens up tremendous possibilities. And on a huge fan of partnerships, you alluded to this earlier, public private partnership, interagency partnership, international partnership with like-minded partners, and partnership with economic development ecosystems, partnership with entrepreneurial ecosystems, that’s how we are going to move this nation at speed and scale.

Tom Temin
Because energy is a broad word, and there are many forms of energy under research, including nuclear, but beyond the proving of concepts and basic research, energy has to be translated into production, so that energy is produced at the scale, a country the size needs. So where does the research collaboration begin and end? Or does it go all the way through proving grounds to see if concepts can work at scale?

Sethuraman Panchanathan
There is such collaborations go all the way through, Tom, and then there are areas where we hyper partner, in basic research, of course, there are areas of applied research that we partner in. We launched our technology innovation partnerships directorate, called the tip directorate, we talked about it briefly last time when we spoke. And now it is real, because we are launching the regional innovation engines program. Guess what, we have representation from every state, every territory of our nation, presenting fantastic ideas of their innovation. And so, how do we then start to, as you rightly point out, how do we then start to take these ideas and apply research concepts, then translate them into technologies of the future? By creating the entrepreneurial ecosystems, the industries of the future, and that’s what we’re doing. We are going to be partnering at all levels to ensure that, through that partnership, as I said earlier, they’re going to strengthen at speed and scale.

Tom Temin
And sometimes research gets down to the very small level, such as a child, who needs speech, pathological help. And so we mentioned that at the beginning, this is not just an artificial intelligence institute, there’s a lot of those around, frankly. This one is devoted to speech pathology needs of children?

Sethuraman Panchanathan
Yes. So, if you look at the possibilities, you look at every child, we all know that every child is a gift of God and therefore, basically, you can already see that it is our responsibility to see how we can take that, innate latent talent, and express it in its fullest form. And so these kinds of projects therefore, make possible development of new ideas and new technologies, but also understanding the core issues and see how we can help these children to express their talent in the fullest form. So, at the AI project, the AI institute that you talked about, that we have launched recently, I’m very proud of that. Because AI is often thought of as, oh, but it is only for the so called haves. But it is not AI is about haves, have nots, everybody. Everybody can benefit from this AI revolution. And that’s what NSF is committed to. To unleashing the possibilities everywhere.

Tom Temin
My guest is Dr. Sethuraman Panchanathan, director of the National Science Foundation. All right. And so what is the grand challenge here in speech pathology?

Sethuraman Panchanathan
The current challenges, basically, how do we assist a kid with speech issues to be able to take and understand what the issues are and develop personalized mechanisms, by which we can bring out their talent and their abilities to the fullest form. And that’s personalized, every individual is different. It’s not a one size fits all approach. So with AI, what you do is, it’s almost like a human and the machine working together as partners learning from each other. And therefore, making those possibilities for every individual. And depending on what their specific challenges might be. And in case, our speech pathology is about, speech related and language related issues that then, are adressed in a very targeted manner so that they are able to get their best talent expressed.

Tom Temin
And this will be by a $20 million grant to the Education Institute of Education Sciences at?

Sethuraman Panchanathan
The University of Buffalo. We found that group, through their partnerships, developed a very strong set of ideas, and then translatable possibilities and impact. And we looked at it and, of course, the gold standard review process determined that this was an outstanding proposal. So that’s why NSF chose to invest in this, because we know there is going to produce some remarkable possibilities.

Tom Temin
Well, you’ve got a lot going on. I just wanted to wrap up with, what about the human capital requirements of the NSF, itself? Because each one of these initiatives, and we only touched on a few of them under the funding coming up in this coming fiscal year, the current fiscal year. You need a program manager? So are you adding program managers? And are you looking to staff up just to make sure that there’s good oversight and management of all of these growing numbers of programs?

Sethuraman Panchanathan
Tom, absolutely. NSF as an agency, we take pride in the fact that 94% of our resources are the budget, disseminated to the people that do the real work and get maximal impact. So we tried to keep our operations to as minimal as possible, but delivering on all the operational savviness that is required, and to ensure that all the compliance, as well as oversight is also built in. So we will, yes, we will add some people. But we are always mindful of the fact, that we need to do that with technology also as an assist. How much can you do things with technology? How much can we do with people and various that soft tax that is required, and then expand where there needs to be expansion. But always mindful of the fact, that we should take advantage of the fact that there are technologies that can also be used and deployed to deliver quality outcomes.

Tom Temin
Right, and you need a pretty good dashboard yourself to look at every morning.

Sethuraman Panchanathan
Absolutely, every facet of this agency is something that we want to look at how we are doing. Are we challenging ourselves more? Are we being more innovative? I always say, Tom, that if we are the agency that is responsible for, essentially, unleashing innovation everywhere, it starts right at home. Are we an agency that is using innovation in everything that we do? Are we looking inward and making sure that we’re doing the best possible way of finding solutions to problems inside the agency, in every aspect of our operations? Yes, the answer is, yes.

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